Comments on: Death By Recruiters http://codeanthem.latchbabies.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/ Fri, 18 Jun 2010 03:14:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Radek http://codeanthem.latchbabies.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/comment-page-1/#comment-458 Radek Mon, 17 May 2010 10:06:32 +0000 http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/?p=157#comment-458 As both my parents work in HR, I know that the problem with recruiters will only get worse. In the past, you had to have some sociology or psychology background to be a good HR manager or in charge of hiring. Now you have people that don't understand the technicalities and not even the "soft" aspects that they could evaluate you on. I mean you can tell someone is a good developer without knowing all the technologies they list. As both my parents work in HR, I know that the problem with recruiters will only get worse. In the past, you had to have some sociology or psychology background to be a good HR manager or in charge of hiring.

Now you have people that don’t understand the technicalities and not even the “soft” aspects that they could evaluate you on. I mean you can tell someone is a good developer without knowing all the technologies they list.

]]> By: Marcin Floryan http://codeanthem.latchbabies.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/comment-page-1/#comment-378 Marcin Floryan Tue, 04 May 2010 10:05:50 +0000 http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/?p=157#comment-378 I really, really wish this was not true. My CV could be so much more informative if I took all the mentions of Visual Studio ;) I really, really wish this was not true. My CV could be so much more informative if I took all the mentions of Visual Studio ;)

]]> By: Mark W Schumann http://codeanthem.latchbabies.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/comment-page-1/#comment-307 Mark W Schumann Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:50:57 +0000 http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/?p=157#comment-307 David, that's not a remotely crazy idea. Two resumes, one full of buzzwords, the other full of actual information. Huh. David, that’s not a remotely crazy idea. Two resumes, one full of buzzwords, the other full of actual information. Huh.

]]> By: David http://codeanthem.latchbabies.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/comment-page-1/#comment-293 David Tue, 27 Apr 2010 04:30:22 +0000 http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/?p=157#comment-293 It would be interesting to write about techniques for getting around recruiters, both as the hirer and the hiree. As a hirer I'm required to work with them. As a hiree I have to find a way to get my resume by their weird filter into the hands of a technical person who is qualified to evaluate my experience. I've even considered writing 2 resumes, one for HR and one to give the perspective employer when I actually meet them. It would be interesting to write about techniques for getting around recruiters, both as the hirer and the hiree. As a hirer I’m required to work with them. As a hiree I have to find a way to get my resume by their weird filter into the hands of a technical person who is qualified to evaluate my experience. I’ve even considered writing 2 resumes, one for HR and one to give the perspective employer when I actually meet them.

]]> By: Andrew Eells http://codeanthem.latchbabies.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/comment-page-1/#comment-278 Andrew Eells Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:46:00 +0000 http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/?p=157#comment-278 I think there's another side to this story: I'm currently attempting to hire without using recruitment agencies, not because in my opinion the costs are way out of league with the service provided, but because the recruiters make every effort to brief the candidate before any interviews in terms of how they should come across. I have interviewed myself many times over the years and not once learned anything of real value from a recruiter in advance about the position. Many times I have been prepped for what sort of person might be "best-fit" and how to tailor my own responses and questions. On one occasion I was even given the actual answers to an entire half-hour's interview of specific technical questions that I would face (presumably from the previous candidates feedback). As a hiring technical lead I really do not want candidates to walk through the door either knowing what questions they are going to face or more importantly how they should best present themselves. I want them to turn up fresh and keen and interested to find out about the role and the company for themselves. If they aren't the right fit for the company and vice versa then hiring them could end up being a dreadful and potentially expensive decision for both parties - yet this is the ultimate goal of the recruiting agency, regardless of the best interests of the candidate and the hiring company. So the benefits of involving a recruitment agency are actually quite negative in my opinion. Given that it takes very little time to skim over a CV and decide whether an application is appropriate and worth reviewing in further detail I just can't see the benefits, apart perhaps from market exposure for a particular or restricted skill-set? Anyone disagree? Great blog by the way @codeanthem, I can certainly empathise with your dislike of non-technical people managing software projects too. I've had similar experiences and thoughts in the past http://www.andrew-eells.com/2010/02/08/agile-management/ Looking forward to the uncloaking! I think there’s another side to this story: I’m currently attempting to hire without using recruitment agencies, not because in my opinion the costs are way out of league with the service provided, but because the recruiters make every effort to brief the candidate before any interviews in terms of how they should come across.

I have interviewed myself many times over the years and not once learned anything of real value from a recruiter in advance about the position. Many times I have been prepped for what sort of person might be “best-fit” and how to tailor my own responses and questions. On one occasion I was even given the actual answers to an entire half-hour’s interview of specific technical questions that I would face (presumably from the previous candidates feedback).

As a hiring technical lead I really do not want candidates to walk through the door either knowing what questions they are going to face or more importantly how they should best present themselves. I want them to turn up fresh and keen and interested to find out about the role and the company for themselves. If they aren’t the right fit for the company and vice versa then hiring them could end up being a dreadful and potentially expensive decision for both parties – yet this is the ultimate goal of the recruiting agency, regardless of the best interests of the candidate and the hiring company.

So the benefits of involving a recruitment agency are actually quite negative in my opinion. Given that it takes very little time to skim over a CV and decide whether an application is appropriate and worth reviewing in further detail I just can’t see the benefits, apart perhaps from market exposure for a particular or restricted skill-set?

Anyone disagree?

Great blog by the way @codeanthem, I can certainly empathise with your dislike of non-technical people managing software projects too. I’ve had similar experiences and thoughts in the past http://www.andrew-eells.com/2010/02/08/agile-management/

Looking forward to the uncloaking!

]]> By: Rithesh http://codeanthem.latchbabies.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/comment-page-1/#comment-239 Rithesh Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:11:02 +0000 http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/?p=157#comment-239 Good one and so many of you are so right.... I agree, if you don't understand technology (basics of coding) .. you shouldn't be a technology recruiter....it goes the other way too as I hire a lot of .NET developers and one of the que I ask them is "What is a Windows Service" and half of them with 5+ yrs experience has no clue on what I asked......anyways... How about a candidate interview me for a change on the que I ask candidates?..:) great article... thanks Rithesh , recruiter @kpmg Good one and so many of you are so right…. I agree, if you don’t understand technology (basics of coding) .. you shouldn’t be a technology recruiter….it goes the other way too as I hire a lot of .NET developers and one of the que I ask them is “What is a Windows Service” and half of them with 5+ yrs experience has no clue on what I asked……anyways… How about a candidate interview me for a change on the que I ask candidates?..:)
great article…

thanks
Rithesh , recruiter @kpmg

]]> By: Duane Roberts http://codeanthem.latchbabies.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/comment-page-1/#comment-237 Duane Roberts Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:06:34 +0000 http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/?p=157#comment-237 I personally cringe when I see a story like this. On one hand it is a sad commentary on the industry that I have been a part of for almost 15 years. On the other it highlights why professional recruiters, those that have a true relationship with their client, have developed an understanding of a market and earned trust and respect from job seekers (and clients) continue to thrive. Their are many good recruiters out there that know how to do this job. I would suggest networking through other industry professionals (or even companies) to find them instead of wasting time with those that are giving the industry a terrible name. I personally cringe when I see a story like this. On one hand it is a sad commentary on the industry that I have been a part of for almost 15 years. On the other it highlights why professional recruiters, those that have a true relationship with their client, have developed an understanding of a market and earned trust and respect from job seekers (and clients) continue to thrive.

Their are many good recruiters out there that know how to do this job. I would suggest networking through other industry professionals (or even companies) to find them instead of wasting time with those that are giving the industry a terrible name.

]]> By: Jack Perkins http://codeanthem.latchbabies.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/comment-page-1/#comment-211 Jack Perkins Thu, 22 Apr 2010 04:25:35 +0000 http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/?p=157#comment-211 Amber, you have to remember that Google and Amazon are chalk full of "recruiters", droves of them and most are on contract (I know this for fact about Google). Even Amazon uses external recruiters. These comments are fascinating and it brings to light something obvious yet unspoken so far: There are no barriers to entry to the recruiting profession. That is why you have soup to nuts. The recruiter you want honor's their word, is straight in their communications, and lets nature take its course with minimal salesmanship pressure. The harder they think they have to sell the more likely it is not a fit for you (my philosophy). To me, executive recruiting and recruting in general is simply being a matchmaker. A very old profession (but not the oldest!). I do permanent placement and I want the job to be right and I want you to stick and grow there. Amber, you have to remember that Google and Amazon are chalk full of “recruiters”, droves of them and most are on contract (I know this for fact about Google).
Even Amazon uses external recruiters.

These comments are fascinating and it brings to light something obvious yet unspoken so far:

There are no barriers to entry to the recruiting profession. That is why you have soup to nuts.

The recruiter you want honor’s their word, is straight in their communications, and lets nature take its course with minimal salesmanship pressure. The harder they think they have to sell the more likely it is not a fit for you (my philosophy).

To me, executive recruiting and recruting in general is simply being a matchmaker. A very old profession (but not the oldest!).

I do permanent placement and I want the job to be right and I want you to stick and grow there.

]]> By: Nice reading for all those gee… http://codeanthem.latchbabies.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/comment-page-1/#comment-210 Nice reading for all those gee… Thu, 22 Apr 2010 03:59:38 +0000 http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/?p=157#comment-210 [...] reading for all those geeks who depend on recruiters for that dream job http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/ [...] [...] reading for all those geeks who depend on recruiters for that dream job http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/ [...]

]]> By: Amber http://codeanthem.latchbabies.com/blog/2010/04/death-by-recruiters/comment-page-1/#comment-202 Amber Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:45:28 +0000 http://www.codeanthem.com/blog/?p=157#comment-202 "In an ideal situation we should walk away from those positions, but unfortunately 80% of companies ( unlike Google and Amazon)hire through recruiters/head hunters." What I love about this comment is: consider which companies have the smartest developers, build the best software and are the most innovative companies - 80% of companies or the Googles and Amazons of the world? Of course, it's the (very few) Googles and Amazons of the world, so why don't more companies try to copy their hiring style, which is NO RECRUITERS. “In an ideal situation we should walk away from those positions, but unfortunately 80% of companies ( unlike Google and Amazon)hire through recruiters/head hunters.”

What I love about this comment is: consider which companies have the smartest developers, build the best software and are the most innovative companies – 80% of companies or the Googles and Amazons of the world? Of course, it’s the (very few) Googles and Amazons of the world, so why don’t more companies try to copy their hiring style, which is NO RECRUITERS.

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